More ignition problems

[Adam]

After having sorted the 2x tacho issue and the loose connector, I had a few days of riding then it stopped again.
This time it failed on a dual carriageway with no verge, but luckily coasted to where a small road goes underneath, so there was a few feet of tarmac between the carriageway and the bridge railings.
The connector I found in my previous post was OK, so had to call for recovery.

Side note - The recovery insurance I got with my bank account - Nationwide Building Society Flex Plus worked really well.
The got a van to me in about an hour and took me and the bike home. They even called me a couple of times while I was waiting, to check I was still safe next to the main road. Excellent service!

Anyway, I've checked most of the ignition system, except the coils themselves. As there is no spark at all, I thought it unlikely that both have failed at the same time - and it would have meant taking the tank of - again

So, having cleaned and checked loads of connectors with EC-90 contact cleaner, it's still not working.

2 odd things I have found though, and I'd appreciate some advice...
First, the grey wire that provides power from the ignition switch to the ICU (aka IC Igniter) under the seat.

Ignition Switch (C2 UK model)

There is 0 ohm resistance between the left hand brown wire (which provides power to all sorts of ancillary items) and the white wire (which comes from the main fuse in the fuse box), but there is 100 ohms between the white wire and the grey wire, which goes to the ICU.
The grey wire doesn't even look like it gets connected in the diagram, but it does and is needed by the ICU, but doesn't provide 12v.
It could just be a signal wire, but the wiring diagram doesn't make that clear - so could be the cause of my problem.

The second thing is the ICU itself.
In the Kawasaki workshop manual, there is a table of resistance measurements between all the connections, like this:

ICU Internal Resistance

It says to use the 'Kawasaki Hand Tester' but I don't have one, I used my (quite good spec) digital multimeter, and got these readings - which are quite different to what was expected:

Igniter Readings

tFGyV1S9y6.png (11.55 KiB) Viewed 6576 times

Is this because I didn't use the 'authorised' tester, or because my ICU is genuinely screwed?

If it is really broken, anyone know what might cause it to fail like this?
I don't want to replace it and have another one fail!

Thanks everyone!

[hugojose]

Depends on where the ignition key is.

With battery DISCONNECTED AND IGNITER DISCONNECTED if the key is on OFF, then there should infinity ohms or OL betwen the White and Brown, and also between Gray and White.

If Key in on ON, then there should 0 ohms between white and brown, and between gray and white.

In this case you are only testing the switch.


Now, what you are reading between the white and gray, WITH IGNITOR CONNECTED, is simply the resistance between them in the igniter, when ignition is OFF. What is that? ....you would have to identify what terminals on the ignitor they are connected to, and what the resistance on the table is for those terminals.. However, those values are vague.

I have two ignitors and the bike runs on both, yet my readings are very different from table. For instance with two different professional, expensive voltmeters, I read 1.1 Mohms, between A and B with one and 750 Khoms with the other. Now my testers could be expensive but the "Kawasaki Special Tester" could be a cheapy one. All instruments have variations. Remember on the factory manuals, even a garden variety screw driver is an "Factory Special Tool". In this case they simply want to tell you those values are only valid with same kind of instrument they used, whether it was expensive or not. . If my bike did not run, I'd say my ignitor is all screwed up, but it runs perfectly well with both I have..thus the table is of little value. How come the same value between A and B is different on different columns??

Your ignitor could be bad, but don't take the different values with different instruments as determining factor. My second ignitor is simply spare and bought on ebay for cheap.

[Freddy]

2 odd things I have found though, and I'd appreciate some advice...
First, the grey wire that provides power from the ignition switch to the ICU (aka IC Igniter) under the seat.

IMG_20200831_211009.jpg

There is 0 ohm resistance between the left hand brown wire (which provides power to all sorts of ancillary items) and the white wire (which comes from the main fuse in the fuse box), but there is 100 ohms between the white wire and the grey wire, which goes to the ICU.
The grey wire doesn't even look like it gets connected in the diagram, but it does and is needed by the ICU, but doesn't provide 12v.
It could just be a signal wire, but the wiring diagram doesn't make that clear - so could be the cause of my problem.

There is a small resistor in the ignition switch that creates that 100 ohm resistance, and gives rise to around 10.5?? volts flowing out of the switch down the grey wire. I haven't followed it though on my bike but agree it will connect to the ICU. So based upon what your describing above that bit sounds correct and as it should be.

As your tacho problem were the connections between the pickup coil and ICU if I recall correctly, that's were I'd focus first. Pulling at the connector may have disturbed something. Page 14-19 of the service manual has a couple tests. After testing resistance at the connector I'd follow the wires back up to see where they go (assume the ICU) and repeat the resistance check from there. That way you are checking the complete circuit.

A picture of the pickup coil shows what looks like an earth connection that comes from the connector and goes under one of the retaining bolts I assume. Check that circuit also.

[Adam]

Freddy, Hugojose,

Thanks for the pointers - esp the 100 ohm resistor and that the resistance readings on the igniter can vary a lot!
This was measured from the connector shown in the wiring diagram in the first image, with the connector pulled apart (I found it behind the headlight), so is definitely just the switch being tested.

I did find another igniter on Ebay - just £10 as it was in a box with other spares and untested, so that's on it's way - nice to have a spare if mine is OK.
Nice to know the values can vary somewhat - I'll measure the new one too when it arrives.

I've checked most of the circuitry, but I'll test some more, including taking the tank off again to check all the connections to the coils.

My multimeter also has a Hz/duty cycle measurement. I got about 22Hz from the pickups when I was turning the engine over.
I guess the signal from the black and green wires running from the Igniter to each of the coils should be the same, or half that.
If there is no signal like that, then that points again to the Igniter or some connections - if there is a signal then the coils or their connectors look suspect.

Thanks!

[Adam]

Well, I think I've solved it, but I'm not 100% sure as it wasn't what I expected.

After testing the Igniter last night and recharging the battery (it had taken a battering from all the attempted starts while I was trying to find the problem) I refitted them both today.

With no other changes, the bike started as normal and then ran for about 5 minutes.
And then stopped again...

OK, so despite the apparent lack of a spark (perhaps the plug I took out wasn't earthed enough to make it work), perhaps this isn't an electrical problem?
I looked under the tank and the little inline fuel filter I have on my bike appeared empty (it's a small, clear plastic box) appeared empty.
So, I switched the tap to 'prime' and I could see fuel running through the filter.
After a while it stopped and the filter looked full, and I tried the engine again and it ran for a few mins and stopped again.
Try as I might, I couldn't repeat this.

But, I did notice the first bit of the fuel pipe looked a bit old, so I shot off to Halfords before it closed and got some more.
This is what the old bit looked like:

Fuel pipe

So, a bit old and cracked, but clear inside and not kinked.

I fitted a new section, started the bike and it ran for a good 10 mins with no issues.

I then went out and did about 20 miles (gave the new LED headlight a good test too) and no problems - it ran perfectly.
Despite all the problems I've had with this bike, the engine itself is sweet - no rattles when cold, starts easily (with the exception of these problems!), revs well, pulls well.

So, is this the end of these problems?
I'm not yet convinced. I'm not sure why this bit of pipe may have been blocking the fuel supply, although it does seem that it was.
Could it be a problem with the vacuum hose to the tap?
Possibly - but if that was the case, it should have run fine in 'Prime' - but it didn't.

But for now though, it's working - I'll update you all if anything else fails.
When I next remove the tank, I'll replace the rest of the fuel hose and the vacuum hose just to be safe.

[Freddy]

Replace the vacuum operated fuel tap. Common problem resulting in fuel starvation. Easy to test on the road just by turning the tape to the 'prime' position if it happens again. But remember in the prime position there is no reserve.

A common indicator of the vacuum tap fault is fuel starvation only when the tank is low. It'll work fine with a full tank, obviously the greater 'head' of pressure is enough to force fuel through the failing valve.

[Adam]

Freddy,

I have some more pipe for the vacuum connection, which will be easier to replace first before the tap
Do you know of anyway to test the tap?

Thanks,

Adam

[Freddy]

Freddy,


Do you know of anyway to test the tap?

Yep easy to test. Ride around till it cuts out again. While still coasting turn the tap to 'prime'. If it fires up again you know the vacuum tap is the problem. It might sound like a dramatic way to test the tap but its not. If it doesn't fire up the problem is not the tap, and it was going to stop anyway.

Just to be clear, the 'prime' position doesn't utilize the vacuum valve function. Both the 'run' and 'reserve' positions do. The 'prime' position is just like a manual tap 'on', so it will flow fuel no matter the condition of the vacuum valve.

[Adam]

Thanks - I'll try that next time it breaks down

[Zrobx1100]

Grey wire gives a 6v signal to the cdi that's what the resistor in the ignition switch does, any more than 6v output the bike thinks it's being hot wired and cuts the spark, had this problem on mine, wired in new resistor fixed the problem